MagicBunny.co.uk

You're right, but Penguin seems to have the kind of reputation that Sankey is accusing them of

Difficult point, but it depends how you define , "Efficient seller of Magic." A widely held belief, and certainly one that I subscribe to, is that Penguin make loads of money from selling ripped off items, then use that money to fund the undercutting of other dealers. If they were competing on a level Playing field with the others then, to a point, Fair enough, but I don't feel they are.

Also, Magic Dealing is never going to be a High volume, low margin business. Especially in the Bricks and Mortar shops that have nurtured the hobbies and Careers of many magicians. Whatever is said about the ethics getting dems of products live, then buying from t'internet if it is cheaper, that practice will still go on. This whole argument goes back to the days of Retail Price maintenance which was abolished in the mid 60's. The thought that fixed prices leads to competing on service rather than price. In my days of electrical retailing for instance, Many top names fixed prices, you couldn't discount Sony products, nor could you charge for delivery or installation. If Sony found you discounting, you were in Danger of losing your distibution rights with them. They made sure that each dealer made a reasonable profit margin to be able to provide a great service to kep up Their reputation.

No one can argue that Magic articles are Necessaries, (look it up,) therefore, to my mind, a producer trying to help the smaller companies that give the good service, rather than just the box shifters, can only be a good thing.


Andy

Well, yes, they have a certain reputation. But in this particular case we don´t have any prove. This is the reason why I say: "Everybody should be very careful in what he or she says, because we don´t know all the facts".

Magixx

Some online dealers, not naming anyone here for legal reasons, play the Mr Hyde to the magic community's Dr.Jekyll. They fill the role required by the younger magicians.

Those new to magic want everything NOW! We've all done it to some degree, wanting to learn cool new stuff to impress our colleagues. Online dealers offer such a market the instant gratification they crave. Look at the video, click to pay and download the love. It's a rampant white-knuckle ride. What business could possibly ignore this huge cash cow?

The problem is keeping up with demand in such a situation, as the customers continually demand more and more. Then the corner cutting starts. Price slashing; which is viable due to the relatively low cost of an online business. But where to find new effects? Hold on a minute. The new magicians are ignorant of much of magic's history, so if we take a know effect and change it a little, give it a hip wacky title and cool video and voila! We're off on the road to the bank again. Yipee!!!

Who's to blame? The online dealers or us for continually going back for more of the same, despite warnings from within our own fold?

Something to ponder.

Playing Devil's advocate here:
Since Smiths and the supermarkets put an end to the NET book agreement we've pretty much seen the last of small independent book stores. Is that necessarily a good thing for the consumer?
The same thing has been happening to indie music stores.
It's precisely because this kind of discounting can lead to only people like Penguin surviving that it's a bad thing in the long run. Creators stipulating prices in the magic market is not new. John Kennedy for instance has been doing it for years.
If Sankey didn't make it a contractual obligation that Penguin could not discount though there's not much point in bleating now, is there?

Hah! I wish I even had a Smiths near me. It closed down over a year ago and so there's nothing even approaching a bookshop within about a mile. Woolworths and the supermarkets have some.

At least big chain bookstores aren't ripping off products.



It might have been an oral agreement and hence not worth the paper it's written on.

Alternatively, it might simply be that it's not worth litigating.

Absolutely. I can now easily obtain all books in print, many at a substantial discount and I don't even live anywhere near a decent 'small bookshop'.

Price fixing is done for the benefit of the seller, not the buyer.

No, this is not entirely true. In the US and the UK the market for books is dominated by a few very big players - which reduces the variaty of the published books. In Germany and Austria, where we have a fixing for book prices, there are many more independent publishers.

Magixx

From the site in question

Update: 11.10.05 5:42pm Pacific

Thanks to everyone who has contacted us in support.

A counterfeit item is defined as a copy of an original item that is sold as the original.

In a recent statement, Jay Sankey used careful language to accuse Penguin Magic of manufacturing counterfeit Sankey Magic items and selling them as originals. That accusation is 100% false. Penguin Magic has never manufactured or sold any counterfeit item from any manufacturer. Every single Sankey Magic item that we have sold in the 3+ years that we've been carrying the Sankey Magic line has been genuine and was purchased directly from Sankey Magic or one of Sankey Magic's authorized distributors.

We have contacted Sankey Magic and offered to pay for an independent auditor to come into our operation and verify that we have never manufactured or sold counterfeit items from Sankey Magic or any other manufacturer. At this point, Sankey Magic has not responded to our offer.

We expect Sankey Magic to either take us up on our offer to pay for and undergo an independent audit, or issue a retraction of this accusation--as it is an extremely serious accusation, and it is completely and demonstrably false.

Please let us be clear that despite Jay Sankey's recent comments we've enjoyed an excellent relationship with him over the past two years, and we wish him the very best.

I would really, really like to know if anyone actually bought TRC for $30 rather than the $40 that was to be charged.

This user complains that he was charged $40 in his shopping cart rather than the $30 advertised on the site, and his post predates Jay's first email:

http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... hp?t=93791

As I mentioned before: it will all come down to the question of proof. I would like to read the answer of Jay Sankey. In the end, PenguinMagic can sue him, then he has to give evidence for his statements.

Magixx

I don't know much about it, and it is an assumption, but I've always felt that Jay carried P*****n magic, and that they needed a big name as such to give them Kudos. I wonder who they'll line up next for this.

I recently ended my role as a Moderator on Penguin Magic Forums. It was for ethical reasons, not Penguin's, but mine as I had opened a competing on-line magic store.

During my time on the forums I was aware of the ethical issues at Penguin. I choose to be a moderator much as JaredGill said because I separated the forums from the store.

That being said, both Sankey and Penguin have a lot to be ashamed of and it's absolutely ludicrous that Sankey chose to go public. According to his email he knew 6 months into the deal that things were wrong. The rest of us knew from day 1. Why enter into a business agreement when you know upfront the possible consequences? Could it be money? Sold his soul to the bird and once he's free expresses the regret? Poor form.

And Penguin's response? Too much Sankey Magic? They watched their carts fill with the purchases of DVD after DVD after DVD. Penguins don't buy what's tried and true, they buy what's new. More New = More Money! I'm sure they weren't complaining when they deposited the checks every night. Concerned with quality? I doubt it. They had a name and a cash cow. Once scorned, they express regret? True Sankey put them on the defensive but all the same: Poor form.

And now now seems to the the time to "choose sides". I find it funny that many who chided Sankey for releasing so much under the Penguin name are now his defenders. Is everyone watching their DVDs of "Firestarters" or "Boris Pocus" while chanting their praise the the almighty Jay? There are no winners in this one. Both Sankey and Penguin loose. Both knew what they were in for and both profited from the arrangement.

I bought from them and still do i find there tricks good

Shall i boycott them?

Thats your decision.